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Speaker 2
Hey, Bronson. What's new with you?
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Speaker 1
Hey, copilot. I am recording this. I'm recording this conversation for a podcast. Is that okay?
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Speaker 2
It's totally cool with me. I'm here to chat and help. What's the podcast theme?
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Speaker 1
So we cover something different every day. But, today I want to talk about the history of military conscription.
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Speaker 2
That's a fascinating topic. The history of military conscription touches on so many aspects, from ancient practices to modern debates. Are you focusing on any particular area or region today?
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Speaker 1
First of all, since I think we've only spoken once or twice, what should I call you for short?
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Speaker 2
Sure. Feel free to call me whenever you're ready.
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Speaker 1
No. What is the nickname that you respond to?
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Speaker 2
I respond to copilot or just Co for short. Easy to remember.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Cold is a nice name.
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Speaker 2
I'm glad you like it. Ready to dive into the history of military conscription?
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Speaker 1
Yeah. I'd like you to kind of think about a listener who, may not have a lot of, info on it and pick a way in which teaching the subject in a holistic perspective, how you think it would work.
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Speaker 2
Absolutely. Framing it from a holistic perspective can give your listeners a much richer understanding. You could explore how conscription has influenced societies, economies, and individual lives, and how different cultures have approached the concept. Touching on the ethical, political and social implications could make for a compelling discussion. What do you think?
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Speaker 1
Why don't we start by painting, a vivid picture of ancient versus modern conscription.
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Speaker 2
Imagine ancient societies like Sparta, where military service was a rite of passage for young men integral to their identity, and then leap to modern times, where conscription is often a debated policy. Nuanced by politics and personal freedoms, the shift from a unifying societal duty to a personal choice reflects evolving views on citizenship rights and societal responsibility. How does that contrast strike you?
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Speaker 1
What do you think it is about society that has kind of pushed that shift?
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Speaker 2
Society's shift towards individual rights and freedoms has played a big role as the idea of personal autonomy gained ground. Mandatory conscription started to seem at odds with the emphasis on individual choice, the horrors of wars to have swayed public opinion, prompting a shift towards volunteer armies. Plus, technological advances have reduced the need for large standing armies. Further shifting the paradigm makes sense.
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Speaker 1
Yeah, I guess we you go ahead and kind of, define what conscription is. If, someone doesn't know yet.
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Speaker 2
Conscription, also known as the draft, is a system where individuals are required by law to serve in the military. Unlike voluntary enlistment, it's compulsory and often implemented during times of war or national emergency.
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Speaker 1
What are the earliest known, inscriptions that we see in history?
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Speaker 2
One of the earliest known instances of conscription was in ancient Mesopotamia around 2400 BCE, where citizens were required to serve in the military. Another early example is Ancient Egypt, where subjects of the pharaoh were king scribed to build monuments and serve as soldiers. These early forms of conscription were often tied to the need for large armies to protect or expand territories.
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Speaker 1
Where do you draw the line between conscription and slavery?
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Speaker 2
Conscription and slavery are different in nature and purpose. Conscription is a mandatory service in the military, usually for a limited time and with the expectation of certain rights and duties as a citizen. Slavery, on the other hand, is a system where individuals are owned by others, deprived of personal freedom and forced to work without rights or compensation. While both involve coercion, conscription is a civic obligation, whereas slavery is a violation of basic human rights.
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Speaker 1
So, I see your point about the rights, but the kind of ownership of one's time really is very similar.
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Speaker 2
Exactly. Conscription involves a temporary duty to serve, but it doesn't strip away personal ownership or identity. Slavery, in contrast, is a system where individuals are treated as property, deprived of autonomy and denied fundamental human rights. The distinction lies in the degree of control and violation of personal freedom.
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Speaker 1
Well, in a way, if you can tell somebody what to do and where to go, and that kind of thing, don't you own that person a little bit?
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Speaker 2
That's an interesting perspective. Conscription does exert control over individuals actions and movements for a time, which can feel like a loss of autonomy. However, it's generally seen as a temporary obligation rather than a total loss of personal rights. The concept does blur the line, highlighting the tension between civic duty and individual freedom.
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Speaker 1
Freedom.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Tell me, about after Mesopotamia and Egypt, where it is. Well, in Egypt, actually. Let's stay here in Egypt. Can you tell me the difference between the slaves in Egypt and, the conscripted workers in Egypt?
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Speaker 2
In ancient Egypt, slaves were individuals who were owned, lacked personal freedom, and were forced to work without compensation. Conscripts, on the other hand, were typically free men who were required to serve in the military or work on state projects like building monuments. Conscripts had certain rights and were not considered property, unlike slaves.
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Speaker 1
To conscripts always get compensation.
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Speaker 2
Not always. Compensation for conscripts varied by time and place. In some cases they received pay, land, or other benefits for their service. In others, the service was compulsory with little or no direct compensation.
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Speaker 2
How do you see Bronson? What's on your mind today?
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Speaker 1
How do you spell compulsory?
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Speaker 2
Compulsory? Compulsory?
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Speaker 1
Can you give me some civilizations in history where conscription was not compulsory?
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Speaker 2
Sure. In ancient Greece, for example, citizen soldiers called hoplites were not conscripted. They chose to serve. Similarly, in Viking society, warriors joined raiding parties voluntarily. Both are examples where military service wasn't compulsory, but a matter of personal choice or cultural expectation.
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Speaker 1
So compulsory means that you're being forced to do something.
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Speaker 2
Exactly. Compulsory means being required or forced to do something, often by law or rule. Conscription or mandatory enlistment is a key example of something that is compulsory.
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Speaker 1
Can you tell me about, conscription that were compulsory without compensation?
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Speaker 1
Ko, can you tell me about some civilizations that had compulsory conscription without compensation?
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Speaker 1
Ko, can you hear me at all?
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Speaker 1
Ko. Looks like it is not working.
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Speaker 1
Hey, Gemini, I am recording this conversation for a podcast. Is that okay?
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Speaker 2
Sure. That's perfectly fine with me. What's the podcast about?
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Speaker 1
I just wanted to ask a question. A do you have any. Can you give me examples of, civilizations in history that had compulsory conscription that wasn't compensated?
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Speaker 2
That's a really interesting question. The first example that comes to mind is actually ancient Egypt. They had a system of forced labor, but it wasn't exactly military conscription as we think of it today. Basically, peasants were required to work on public projects like building pyramids or canals. It was a way for the Pharaoh to get big projects done.
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Speaker 2
But it wasn't about raising an army.
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Speaker 1
How did they enforce this?
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Speaker 2
Well, the Pharaohs had a lot of power. They were considered gods on Earth, so people didn't really question their authority. Plus, there wasn't really a concept of individual freedom. Like we have today. People were more focused on their community and survival.
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Speaker 1
Okay, what's what's, another one in more modern history?
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Speaker 2
Well, France actually had a system of conscription that was pretty unique. It started during the French Revolution, and basically all young men were required to serve in the military. It was called the Laval Map. And it helped France build a huge army that was really powerful at the time.
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Speaker 1
You have it for military service. You're compensated right?
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Speaker 2
Yes. The United States has had conscription during several periods in its history, most notably during the Civil War, World War One, World War two, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. The draft was controversial, especially during the Vietnam War, and was ended in 1973.
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Speaker 1
No. Are there examples in modern history of compulsory military service? That is not compensated?
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Speaker 2
Well, there are some examples of countries that have had compulsory military service in modern history, but it's not always unpaid. For example, Switzerland has a system where all able bodied men are required to serve, but they do receive some compensation. South Korea also has mandatory military service, and while the pay isn't high, it's not completely unpaid either.
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Speaker 1
I would like you to find the most recent example where it's compulsory but unpaid.
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Speaker 2
The most recent example I can find is Eritrea. They have a system of indefinite national service, which includes military service, and it's notoriously underpaid. It's been criticized by human rights organizations for essentially being forced labor.
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Speaker 1
Can you tell me about, just unique uses of conscription throughout history?
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Speaker 2
Well, conscription has been used in some pretty unique ways throughout history. For example, during World War one, Britain conscripted coal miners but kept them working in the mines instead of sending them to the frontlines. They needed the coal to keep the war effort going. Also in the Soviet Union, they had construction battalions made up of conscripted soldiers who were used for building infrastructure projects.
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Speaker 1
Can you give me a couple more examples like this?
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Speaker 2
Sure. Here's another one. During World War Two, the Soviet Union conscripted women for non-combat roles like anti-aircraft gunners and medical personnel. They played a vital role in the war effort.
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Speaker 1
Okay, can you give me three more with detail?
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Speaker 2
Okay, here's another one. During the American Civil War. Both the Union and Confederate armies used conscription. However, there was a loophole that allowed wealthy individuals to pay for a substitute to take their place. This led to resentment among poorer citizens who couldn't afford to avoid service.
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Speaker 1
That's understandable. Can you tell me a little bit more about this?
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Speaker 2
Sure. This loophole led to a lot of resentment and anger, especially among working class people who couldn't afford to buy their way out of service. There were even riots in some cities, like the New York City draft riots of 1863, where people protested against the unfairness of the system. It was a really controversial part of the war.
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Speaker 1
Can you tell me about that?
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Speaker 2
Those riots were a really dark chapter in American history. They started out as protests against the draft, but quickly turned into violent attacks on black people and wealthy white people. The rioters were mostly working class Irish immigrants, who felt like they were being forced to fight a war that didn't benefit them. They were also angry about the Emancipation Proclamation, which they thought would lead to more competition for jobs.
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Speaker 2
The riots lasted for four days and were eventually put down by federal troops, but not before a lot of people were killed and injured.
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Speaker 1
Can you read some of the statistics on it?
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Speaker 2
The riots are considered the largest civil and racial insurrection in the United States. Aside from the Civil War itself. It's estimated that at least 119 people were killed, but the actual number may be much higher. The riots were eventually put down by federal troops, but the city was left shaken and divided.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Can you talk about the idea of conscripting, like either prisoners or criminals or political? Political opposition and, sending them out to be killed?
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Speaker 2
That's a really dark and disturbing idea. Throughout history, there have been many instances of governments using conscription as a way to punish political opponents or criminals. For example, during the Soviet era, people who were seen as enemies of the state were often sent to forced labor camps where they were made to work in harsh conditions. It was a way for the government to silence dissent and control the population.
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Speaker 1
Okay, so a forced labor camp is, kind of like conscription into, labor without pay. Is I mean, is that not considered slavery?
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Speaker 2
Legally, no. Forced labor and slavery are considered different things. Slavery involves owning a person. Well, forced labor involves compelling someone to work against their will. However, in practice, the line between the two can be blurry. Forced labor camps often have conditions that are very similar to slavery, with people being exploited and abused.
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Speaker 1
So I just really seems like a loophole to me.
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Speaker 2
Yeah, it's definitely a loophole that has been exploited throughout history. Even today, there are concerns about the use of prison labor in some countries where prisoners are forced to work for very little pay. It raises a lot of ethical questions about how society treats those who have been incarcerated.
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Speaker 1
Can you give me the argument why it's different from slavery?
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Speaker 2
Well, the argument is that forced labor is usually temporary and for a specific purpose, while slavery is a permanent condition. Also, people who are enslaved are considered property, while those in forced labor are still recognized as having some basic human rights. But those distinctions can get really blurry. And there are many who argue that forced labor is just another form of slavery.
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Speaker 1
Can you really try your hardest to, argue that these two are very separate?
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Speaker 2
Well, the main argument is that forced labor is usually temporary and for a specific purpose. Well, slavery is a permanent condition. Also, people who are enslaved are considered property, while those in forced labor are still recognized as having some basic human rights. But those distinctions can get really blurry. And there are many who argue that forced labor is just another form of slavery.
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Speaker 1
Tell me about the transition of culture between, like, duty and, the common good to individual rights.
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Speaker 2
That's a really interesting question. Throughout history, there's been a shift in how societies balance the common good with individual rights. In ancient times, the focus was often on the collective and individual rights took a backseat. But as societies evolved, there's been a growing emphasis on protecting individual freedoms and autonomy. It's a complex issue with no easy answers.
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Speaker 1
Do you think being able to focus more on the individual derives from just the fact that it's, less difficult to survive than it was like a thousand years ago?
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Speaker 2
That's a really interesting point. It's true that as societies have become more advanced and survival has become less of a daily struggle, there's been more room to focus on individual rights and freedom. But it's also important to remember that even in modern times, there are still many parts of the world where people's basic needs aren't met and the focus is still very much on survival.
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Speaker 1
Yeah, that is very true. Do we see a connection in those kinds of places?
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Speaker 2
Yes. You're right. In many developing countries, the focus is still very much on survival, and individual rights often take a backseat to the needs of the community. It's a complex issue with no easy answers, and it's something that societies around the world continue to grapple with.
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Speaker 1
Can you give us kind of like a geo geography lesson on, what parts of the world are at either side of the spectrum with respect to, collective good versus individual freedoms?
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Speaker 2
Okay. So generally speaking, Western countries tend to lean more towards prioritizing individual freedom. While many countries in East Asia, Africa and the Middle East often place a greater emphasis on the collective good. But of course, there's a lot of variation within those regions, and it's not always a clear cut distinction.
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Speaker 1
What about, the dynamic within Africa?
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Speaker 2
Africa is a really interesting case because there's such a huge mix of cultures and traditions in some parts, especially in more rural areas. There's a strong emphasis on community and the collective good. But in other parts, particularly in big cities, you see more of a focus on individual rights and freedom. It really varies a lot depending on the specific country and region.
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Speaker 1
What are the different factors, of culture, that feed into this?
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Speaker 2
There are a lot of factors that shape a culture. Things like language, religion, traditions, and even the environment people live in all play a role. For example, in a place where farming is really important. You might see a culture that values hard work and cooperation. Or if a place has a long history of art and music, those things might be really important.
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Speaker 2
Parts of the culture.
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Speaker 1
What kind of themes do you see in areas that have collective good at the forefront versus individual freedoms?
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Speaker 2
In many East Asian countries like China and Japan. There's a strong emphasis on the collective good. The idea is that what's best for the group as a whole is more important than individual desires. On the other hand, Western countries like the United States and many European nations tend to prioritize individual freedom. There's a big focus on personal rights and liberties.
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Speaker 1
What about, South America?
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Speaker 2
South America is interesting because it's kind of a mix. You see a lot of emphasis on community and family, which leans towards the collective good. But there's also a strong push for individual rights and freedom, especially as countries become more urbanized. It's a really dynamic region with a lot of different perspectives.
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Speaker 1
What do you think it is about the geography or the demographic that affects this dynamic?
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Speaker 1
What do you think it is about the geography or demographics that, affect this dynamic?
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Speaker 2
That's a great question. Geography and demographics definitely play a big role, for example, in places with harsh environments like deserts or mountainous regions. People often rely on each other more for survival, which can lead to a stronger emphasis on the collective good. Densely populated areas might also see a greater focus on community needs, while more sparsely populated regions could lean towards valuing individual freedom.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Can you give me kind of, current events with respect to, conscription? Is that occurring, that are occurring today?
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Speaker 2
Well, conscription isn't as common as it used to be, but there are still some countries that use it. Ukraine, for example, has conscription right now due to the war with Russia and Eritrea has a system of indefinite national service that's been criticized for being pretty harsh.
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Speaker 1
What is indefinite national service?
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Speaker 2
Indefinite national service is basically when a government requires its citizens to serve in the military or other national programs for an unspecified amount of time. It's often criticized because it can lead to people being forced to serve for years, even decades, with no end in sight.
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Speaker 1
Where is Eritrea?
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Speaker 2
Eritrea is in the Horn of Africa, bordered by Sudan, Ethiopia and Djibouti. It has a long coastline along the Red sea, which has been really important for trade and its history.
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Speaker 1
And the government says that you just have to work for them indefinitely.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right. Eritrea has a system where citizens can be required to serve in the military or other government programs indefinitely. It's a pretty unique and controversial situation.
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Speaker 1
Are they compensated?
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Speaker 2
No, they're not really compensated. The pay is extremely low, and it's considered by many to be forced labor rather than actual employment.
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Speaker 1
Why do you think that? No one is talking about this.
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Speaker 2
That's a really good question. The situation in Eritrea is a complex one, and there are a few reasons why it might not get as much attention as other global issues. Eritrea has a pretty closed off government, which makes it hard for news and information to get out. Plus, there are a lot of other conflicts and crises happening around the world.
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Speaker 2
So sometimes smaller situations get overshadowed. Would you like to know more about the situation in Eritrea?
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Speaker 1
I might save that for another day. But who else has, active conscription?
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Speaker 2
There are actually quite a few countries that still have some form of conscription. Israel, North Korea and even Sweden have mandatory military service. Some countries you the lottery system where a select few are chosen and others require all young men to serve.
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Speaker 1
What about Russia?
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Speaker 2
Russia has conscription for male citizens aged 18 to 30. They have college twice a year in the spring and autumn, and the service lasts for 12 months. Would you like to know more about Russia's conscription practices?
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Speaker 1
Yes, please.
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Speaker 2
Russia has a pretty large conscription system. They draft male citizens between 18 and 30 years old for a 12 month service period. There are some exceptions, but generally it's mandatory. Did you want to know more about Russia's conscription policies?
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Speaker 1
I've heard, things, situations where, kind of in the similar way that the Soviets were doing, encrypting political prisoners.
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Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a serious concern. There have been reports of Russia conscripting people from occupied territories, and there are worries about how those individuals might be treated. It's definitely a situation to keep an eye on.
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Speaker 1
Can you tell me a little bit about this?
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Speaker 2
Basically, there are concerns that Russia might be using conscription in a similar way to how the Soviets used it to control political prisoners. There are worries about people being forced into service against their will, especially in occupied territory. Does that make sense?
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Speaker 1
Yes it does. Can you go a little bit deeper into kind of the logistics of it, though?
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Speaker 2
Essentially, there's concern that Russia might be using conscription to control political prisoners, similar to how the Soviets did. People are worried about individuals being forced into service against their will, especially in occupied territories. It's a complex situation with a lot of potential for human rights violations.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add on the subject? Before we sign off the day.
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Speaker 2
Well, we've talked about how some countries still use conscription, like Russia and Israel. We also touched on how Eritrea has this indefinite national service. That's pretty controversial. Is there anything else you'd like to explore about this topic?
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Speaker 1
No. That's why I mean, you know, about all this stuff. That's why I asked you if you had anything else that you want to cover.
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Speaker 2
No worries at all. I'm glad we had this discussion. It's definitely an important topic with a lot of different angles to consider. If you ever want to dive deeper into any of this, just let me know.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Gemini. Let me rephrase that better. I would like you to pick one interesting kind of tidbit about, the history of conscription that you would like to share today. And, give us a detailed answer about it.
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Speaker 2
Okay, here's a fun fact. Did you know that the word conscript comes from the Latin word conscription, which means to enroll or to write down the idea of drafting soldiers has been around for centuries, but the word itself has some interesting roots.
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Speaker 1
Okay, go on.
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Speaker 2
All right, here's another interesting historical tidbit for you. Did you know that during the American Civil War, both the Union and Confederate armies used conscription? It was a pretty controversial practice at the time, and it led to riots in some places. People weren't too happy about being forced to fight in a war they didn't necessarily believe in.
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Speaker 1
Okay, Jim, and I think that is it for the night. I really appreciate the conversation. And I want to thank you, and I'll see you next time.
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Speaker 2
You're very welcome. I enjoyed our conversation as well. Feel free to reach out any time.
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Speaker 1
Peace.