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Speaker 1
Gemini, can you hear me?
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I can hear you loud and clear.
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Speaker 1
Do you mind if I record this for a podcast?
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Speaker 2
Not at all. Feel free to record our conversation.
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Speaker 1
Today I want to talk about the evolution of the modern spider.
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Speaker 2
Sounds like a fascinating topic. I'm curious, what about the evolution of spiders? Has you interested?
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Speaker 1
Everything. I'd like you to take me to the very beginning of spiders.
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Speaker 2
All right. Let's dive into the world of spiders. To start, the earliest ancestors of spiders weren't much like the ones we see today. They were actually more like scorpions with long bodies and tails. These ancient arachnids crawled around on land, hunting for small prey.
00;00;59;15 - 00;01;03;09
Speaker 1
How long ago was this?
00;01;03;12 - 00;01;20;15
Speaker 2
These ancient spider ancestors lived a long, long time ago. Around 380 million years back. That's right around the time when the very first forests were starting to appear on Earth.
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Speaker 1
Is it a coincidence that they coincide?
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Speaker 2
That's a great question. It's not likely a coincidence. Those early forests would have been full of all sorts of new insects. Think of them like a never ending buffet for hungry spiders. So having those forests around at the same time probably played a big role in shaping how spiders evolved.
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Speaker 1
So you said that they looked like scorpions.
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Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Those early spider ancestors had long bodies and tails. Kind of like scorpions. They didn't have the same venom or stinger, though. Instead, they probably caught their prey in their claws and ate them alive.
00;02;10;27 - 00;02;15;12
Speaker 1
Did they spin webs back then?
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Speaker 2
It's unlikely those early spiders knew how to swim. They probably stuck to dry land since they were ambush predators. So they'd lie and wait to catch their prey. Swimming wouldn't have been a very useful skill for them back then.
00;02;27;08 - 00;02;32;04
Speaker 1
No. Did they have webs?
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Speaker 2
It's possible you could be referring to a couple of things. First, spiders definitely had webs even back then, so they were probably pretty simple compared to what we see today. Also, there's a specific spider called the Black Widow. Is that what you meant by web?
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Speaker 1
No, I was talking about the webs that they spin with silk.
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Speaker 2
Oh, the web and my silk. That's a common misconception. While it's true that spiders use silk to make webs, the silk itself doesn't have a website built into it. Spiders are amazing creatures, but not quite that advanced.
00;03;06;21 - 00;03;10;18
Speaker 1
I have no idea what you're talking about.
00;03;10;21 - 00;03;19;02
Speaker 2
It sounds like we might be getting a little confused here. Let's try to clear things up. Are you still curious about how spiders evolved? Or would you like to talk about something else?
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Speaker 1
Yeah. Let's keep going down that path.
00;03;23;16 - 00;03;51;27
Speaker 2
All right, so spiders didn't always have the same hunting techniques. Those early spider ancestors probably use their claws and maybe some simple venom to catch prey. Later on, spiders figured out that spinning silk could help them catch bugs and sticky webs. But it turned out to be a pretty successful strategy. So most spiders today use webs to hunt.
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Speaker 1
So you compared them to scorpions? Does that mean that scorpions are older than spiders?
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Speaker 2
That's a good point. Well, spiders and scorpions share a common ancestor. It's likely that scorpions actually branched off from that family tree a bit earlier. So you could say that some scorpions are definitely older than the older spiders.
00;04;15;14 - 00;04;22;04
Speaker 1
What did they both branch from?
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Speaker 2
Both spiders and scorpions share a common ancestor with a group of ancient sea creatures called Europe. You might know them as sea scorpions. Imagine a scorpion. But instead of living on land, they were underwater predators. These ruins are considered the ancestors of all arachnids. The family that includes spiders, scorpions, and even ticks.
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Speaker 1
What makes an arachnid an arachnid?
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Speaker 2
Arachnids have a few key features that set them apart. They all have eight legs. For starters, they also have a body divided into two main parts, not three like insects. And unlike most other creatures, arachnids don't have any antennae.
00;05;14;20 - 00;05;37;05
Speaker 1
Would you say that humans have kind of put animals into different species, largely based on their physical characteristics, like their physical? I don't know. Animal geography or whatever you call that, like physiology.
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Speaker 2
Yeah, that's absolutely true. Historically, we've relied heavily on physical traits to categorize animals into different species. Things like how they look, where they live, and even their size have all played a part in our classification system. Of course, with advances in technology, we now have genetic testing to give us an even clearer picture of how different species are related.
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Speaker 1
Just on a quick tangent, are there any places that we've found where we classify to species to be similar or from like a same family that later we realized we were totally wrong with DNA?
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Speaker 2
Yep. There are definitely cases where scientists misclassified animals before we had access to DNA testing. For instance, there's a whole group of flightless birds called ray types. These include emus, ostriches, and kiwis. Scientists used to think all ray types were closely related, but DNA shows they're actually from several different branches of the bird family tree.
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Speaker 1
Okay, let's go back to, the origin of spiders. Can you tell me about these uric druids or the sea scorpions?
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Speaker 2
Sure. So these creatures called your reds, you might also hear them called sea scorpions or some seriously cool animals. They ruled the oceans hundreds of millions of years ago, way before dinosaurs even existed. Some of them grew to be absolutely massive, up to six feet long. But even though they look kind of creepy with their scorpion like shape, they weren't actually related to scorpions that we have today.
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Speaker 1
I thought you said that scorpions and, spiders both branched off from this Europe or its animal.
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Speaker 2
You're absolutely right, I misspoke. Those scorpions and spiders do share a common ancestor with those European kids. But it's more like cousins than direct siblings. They both evolved from that same ancient family tree, but took their own paths over millions of years.
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Speaker 1
So, would your raptor IDs be like a parent on that, or would it be like an aunt or an uncle? Or would it be like a grandparent, or like a third cousin?
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Speaker 2
That's a tough one to say for sure. Since it was so long ago. But if I had to guess, I'd say it's more like a distant grandparent. You see, the line between fighters in Europe goes back hundreds of millions of years. So it's a pretty distant connection.
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Speaker 1
What is a closer connection to spiders up the evolutionary timeline?
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Speaker 2
Let's see. A closer relative to modern spiders would be something like scorpions. Even though they look a bit different, they share a more recent common ancestor than spiders, and those super old European heads. We talked about.
00;09;02;00 - 00;09;08;16
Speaker 1
Did all spiders originate from scorpions?
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Speaker 2
It's not quite that simple. While scorpions are more closely related to spiders than those ancient Europe. Spider didn't evolve directly from scorpions. They both share a common ancestor. Think of that ancestor of the really early type of arachnid, and then evolved along their own separate path.
00;09;29;06 - 00;09;35;13
Speaker 1
What did spiders most directly evolve from?
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Speaker 2
Spiders most directly evolved from other arachnids, but the exact lineage gets a little murky since there's not a ton of fossils from that far back. We can get a pretty good picture by looking at the DNA of modern spiders and scorpions, and comparing them to the anatomy of those ancient sea scorpions.
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Speaker 1
So do we have any idea what's between sea scorpions and spiders?
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Speaker 2
That's a great question. Unfortunately, there's a pretty big gap in the fossil record when it comes to the direct ancestors of spiders. We know they evolved from something like a scorpion, but the exact details are still a bit fuzzy.
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Speaker 1
Do we have any fossil records from that far back?
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Speaker 2
Yeah, we actually do have some fossil records of early arachnids, but they're pretty rare. There's one really famous one called a trigonal. These guys lived around 400 million years ago, and they had a body shape that's kind of between spiders and scorpions.
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Speaker 1
Are there any others like that?
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Speaker 2
Yeah. There are a few other types of arachnids we've found that give us clues about spider evolution. Some of them look a lot like modern day scorpions, but with a few extra features that hint at their connection to the spider family tree.
00;10;56;15 - 00;11;04;16
Speaker 1
Besides the Trigon at Harvard, can you, mention some more?
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Speaker 2
It sounds like you might be thinking of the extinct arachnid. All right, here's one more group called the phalanges. Tabi. They lived in the Carboniferous period, and, well, they're more closely related to Harbison. Those long legged creatures sometimes called daddy long legs. They still offer some clues about the early evolution of spiders.
00;11;29;00 - 00;11;34;28
Speaker 1
Can you tell me about the trigger node? Harvard's.
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Speaker 2
It sounds like you might be thinking of the extinct arachnid called a trigger. No. Those creatures lived a long, long time ago, way before there were any targets around. But they're still pretty fascinating. You're going to target were basically like a mix between a spider and a scorpion. They had a body shape similar to Scorpion, but with some features that are more like spiders, like their claws.
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Speaker 2
We think they might have been some of the earliest predators on land.
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Speaker 1
Do we know anything else about this creature?
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Speaker 2
Yeah. We've learned a bit more about Trigon over the years. For instance, we now think they might have lived in burrows like modern day scorpions. And while they didn't have venom like scorpions do today, they probably had some pretty nasty claws for grabbing their prey.
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Speaker 1
What was it the size of these?
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Speaker 2
Chicken beds weren't huge, but they weren't tiny either. Most of them were probably about the size of your hand, maybe a little bigger, but there were some that got a bit larger, with a body length of up to four inches long.
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Speaker 1
And those are derived from sea scorpions.
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Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Both scorpions and trigonal beds share a common ancestor with those ancient sea scorpions, though it's important to remember that they aren't direct descendants. Think of them more like evolutionary cousins.
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Speaker 1
Do we know any creatures from between them and the sea? Scorpions?
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Speaker 2
That's a tough one, since the fossil record from that far back isn't super detailed. But there are a few possibilities. Some scientists think that a group of arachnids called scorpions may have been an intermediate step between sea scorpions and the later land dwelling arachnids.
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Speaker 1
Okay, so you said that early spiders date back to about 380 million years. Can you in great detail.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right. The earliest spider ancestors we know about lived around 380 million years ago. Of course, it's possible that spiders were actually around a bit earlier, but we don't have any fossil evidence to prove it yet.
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Speaker 1
In a manner that's as factual as you can be. Can you give us vivid detail of what we know about that time period, 380 million years ago? And describe what Earth and the scenes in the ecosystem would have been like, and the flora and fauna of the time to put us there and be able to, picture it.
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Speaker 2
Picture this. It's 380 million years ago, and the Earth looks drastically different. The continents are all clumped together in a supercontinent called Gondwana, and the landscape is dominated by vast, swampy forest. These aren't like the forests we have today. The trees are giant ferns and horsetail, some reaching over 100ft tall. It's a hot, humid world, and the air is thick with the scent of decay and the buzz of giant dragonflies.
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Speaker 2
Now imagine you're walking through this ancient forest. The ground is soft and muddy and strange. Primitive plants grow everywhere. You might hear the croaking of the first amphibians, creatures that have just crawled out of the water. If you're lucky, you might even spot some of the earliest spiders. Tiny compared to the insects they'd one day hunt. It's a wild, untamed world, full of life, just beginning to explore the possibilities of the land.
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Speaker 1
You said tiny compared to the insects that they would hunt. What do you mean by that?
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Speaker 2
Sure. So those early spiders were much smaller than the giant insects that were buzzing around at the time. Think of them like tiny predators stalking much bigger prey. It would have been kind of like if a spider today had to try to take down a bird. Definitely David versus Goliath.
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Speaker 1
How much bigger were insects back then?
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Speaker 2
Insects were absolutely huge back then. Dragonflies, for example, had wingspans up to two feet long. That's the size of a small bird. And it wasn't just dragonflies. Cockroaches and other bugs were also much bigger than their modern day descendants.
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Speaker 1
Okay. Can you tell me what early spiders. Can you give me some really detailed imagery about what early spiders looked like and acted like and hunted and. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
Unfortunately, those early spiders lived so long ago that we don't have a lot of detailed information about them. Most of what we know comes from studying their modern descendants and making educated guesses based on that. But I can still give you a general idea of what they might have been like. Imagine a tiny spider, maybe an inch long at most.
00;17;27;25 - 00;17;46;05
Speaker 2
They likely have the same basic body plan of spiders today two main body parts and eight legs. But their features might have been a little rough around the edges. They probably didn't have the same specialized spinner at that. Modern spiders used to make intricate webs. Instead, they might have used simpler silk strands to anchor themselves, or maybe wrap up their prey.
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Speaker 2
Hunting would have been a challenge with those giant insects zipping around. They probably relied on ambush tactics. Maybe they'd hide in a crack and pounce when something tasty wandered by. Where they might have used their silk to build simple snares, like a single strand with a sticky blob in the middle.
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Speaker 1
How long ago did, spiders develop their web system?
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Speaker 2
It's tough to say exactly when fighters developed the ability to make webs. Since we don't have fossils showing every step of the process. But we can make an educated guess. The earliest spiders probably used silk in simpler ways, maybe for things like anchoring themselves or wrapping up eggs. It's likely that gradually, over millions of years, they figured out that they could use silk to catch prey.
00;18;46;05 - 00;18;56;17
Speaker 2
Some spiders might have started with simple snares, and bit by bit, their webs got more and more complex.
00;18;56;19 - 00;19;03;17
Speaker 1
Do we have a rough estimate as to the earliest web using spiders?
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Speaker 2
It's hard to say for sure when spiders first started using webs in a big way. The earliest known spiders with complex webs lived around 100 million years ago. But it's possible they were using simpler silk structures much earlier on.
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Speaker 1
How were we able to pinpoint it to 100 million years ago?
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Speaker 2
We can figure out how old something is by studying fossils. Fossils can tell us a lot about the age of the rocks they're found in. And that gives us a clue about how old the creature itself was. In the case of the spiders with complex web, we found fossils of them trapped in amber. That's hardened tree sap. And that gives us a pretty accurate way to date them.
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Speaker 1
Can you tell me some factual information about these fossils that we have of spider webs in amber?
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Speaker 2
Absolutely. Spider fossils trapped in amber are like little time capsules. They give us an incredibly detailed look at ancient spiders and their webs. For instance, some of these fossils show exactly how the spider spun the web. And even let us see tiny details of the silk itself. It's like having a front row seat to the prehistoric world.
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Speaker 1
Okay, so why did spiders evolve to be tiny? In an era where bugs were giant.
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Speaker 2
That's a great question. There could be a few reasons why spiders stayed smaller, even with all those giant insects around. First, being smaller has its advantages. Smaller spiders need less food so they don't have to catch as much prey. They're also harder for predators to spot, which helps them stay safe. And smaller spiders can hide in places that bigger creatures can't reach.
00;20;59;14 - 00;21;25;07
Speaker 2
Also, it's important to remember that those giant insects didn't last forever as the Earth's climate changed. The biggest bugs started to shrink in size, so the small size of spiders might have been a good strategy. That just happened to work out perfectly over time.
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Speaker 1
You said that the spider silk mechanism is called a spinner. It.
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Speaker 2
It sounds like you might be referring to the spinner red. Those are the amazing organs on a spider's backside that produce silk. They're kind of like the spider silk factories.
00;21;43;16 - 00;21;47;22
Speaker 1
How do you spell that word?
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Speaker 2
Sure, it's spelled spin net. It.
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Speaker 1
Can be seen again with a pause between each letter.
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Speaker 2
Sure thing. It's spelled spin and nets. Let me know if you'd like me to spell any other words for you.
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Speaker 1
So it sounds like spiders just kind of beat the other insects to the punch with the getting small thing.
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Speaker 2
Yep. You could say that while those giant insects were busy being huge, spiders figured out that being smaller had its advantages. It's kind of like how some animals developed camouflage to hide from predators. Smaller size became the spider's way of doing things.
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Speaker 1
Do we know when spiders began to develop venom?
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Speaker 2
That's a tricky question. Since venom is a complex substance and we don't have direct evidence of it in super old spider fossils, but we can make some educated guesses. Some scientists think early spiders might have used venom right from the start. Venom can help subdue prey, and even tiny spiders would have needed something to take down their food.
00;23;14;17 - 00;23;41;04
Speaker 2
So it's possible that venom evolved alongside those first spiders. Other experts think venom might have developed a bit later on. They point out that some modern spiders don't have venom. So it's possible that early spiders got by without it too. Maybe they used their fangs for things other than injecting venom, like crushing their prey. So the short answer is, we don't know for sure when spider venom first showed up, but it definitely something scientists are still curious about.
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Speaker 1
They imagine that things that are used to inject venom are different in structure than things that are not.
00;23;53;21 - 00;24;11;19
Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Spiders use their fangs to inject venom. Fangs are basically modified legs that are hollow on the inside. Kind of like hypodermic needles. When a spider bites, venom flows through those hollow fangs and into their prey.
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Speaker 1
He said modified legs.
00;24;17;28 - 00;24;28;17
Speaker 2
Yep. Fangs are basically modified legs. They're a specialized tool that spiders use for catching and subduing their prey.
00;24;28;19 - 00;24;35;22
Speaker 1
Would you say they're more like legs than like, teeth?
00;24;35;24 - 00;24;49;02
Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Spider fangs are more like modified legs than traditional teeth. Think of them as a pair of really sharp claws that are also connected to venom glands.
00;24;49;04 - 00;24;58;19
Speaker 1
That's pretty wild. I never really thought about spider fangs being legs.
00;24;58;21 - 00;25;20;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how spiders evolved such specialized tools. Their fangs are like a perfect example of how evolution can take something basic and turn it into something totally specialized for a specific job.
00;25;20;02 - 00;25;31;25
Speaker 1
It seems like such an intricate system. How does something without venom evolve to have venom?
00;25;31;28 - 00;25;48;25
Speaker 2
That's a great question. Venom is actually a pretty complex mixture of chemicals, so it's kind of surprising that it evolved at all. There are a couple of theories out there. One idea is that venom started out as a digestive fluid. Maybe early spiders had a digestive system that could break down their prey a little faster if they injected some juices beforehand.
00;25;48;29 - 00;26;24;15
Speaker 2
Over time, that digestive fluid might have become more toxic, giving the spiders an advantage when catching prey. Another idea is that venom evolved from a defensive weapon. Maybe those early spiders used some of their body chemicals as a way to discourage predators. Over time, those chemicals became more potent, eventually becoming the venom we know today. It's really fascinating to think about how something so complex could develop through evolution.
00;26;24;18 - 00;26;33;29
Speaker 1
So what did spiders eat early on when insects were huge?
00;26;34;02 - 00;26;52;25
Speaker 2
That's a good question. Those early spiders probably had to be clever about their hunting, since they were so much smaller than the giant insects. They couldn't just take them on directly, instead. They likely focused on smaller prey like early scorpions or other tiny creatures. Think of it like this. Those giant insects were kind of like the dinosaurs of the bug world.
00;26;53;00 - 00;27;05;14
Speaker 2
They were at the top of the food chain, so the spiders would have been better off avoiding them. It's likely they focused on smaller, less dangerous prey until the giant insects started to decline.
00;27;05;17 - 00;27;10;25
Speaker 1
Did you say this was before the dinosaurs?
00;27;10;28 - 00;27;29;00
Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Spiders and their ancestors were around way before the dinosaurs. Think of spiders as the original rulers of the land. At least when it comes to the smaller creatures.
00;27;29;03 - 00;27;36;12
Speaker 1
What was the timeline for the era of the dinosaurs?
00;27;36;15 - 00;28;01;00
Speaker 2
The dinosaurs reign was during a time called the Mesozoic ERA. This is often called the Age of Reptiles. It's divided into three periods Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous. It was about 252 to 201 million years ago. This was the time when the very first dinosaurs appeared. Next is the Jurassic, lasting from roughly 201 to 145 million years ago. Think of this as the golden age of dinosaurs.
00;28;01;02 - 00;28;31;05
Speaker 2
This is when iconic creatures like Stegosaurus and Diplodocus roamed the Earth. Finally, there's the Cretaceous, lasting from about 145 to 66 million years ago. This is when the famous T-Rex and Triceratops lived. It's also when a huge asteroid hit the Earth, causing a mass extinction that wiped out most of the dinosaurs.
00;28;31;08 - 00;28;41;14
Speaker 1
So you said tiny. But how big would you say that these early spiders like, way back before the dinosaurs were.
00;28;41;16 - 00;29;04;07
Speaker 2
Those early spiders were pretty small. Probably about the size of your pinky fingernail. Or even smaller. Of course, this is just an estimate, since we don't have many detailed fossils of them.
00;29;04;09 - 00;29;13;00
Speaker 1
Okay. Can you take me to the first big milestone in spider evolution?
00;29;13;02 - 00;29;34;09
Speaker 2
All right, so the first big milestone in spider evolution is a bit tricky to pinpoint, but we can talk about the development of their amazing silk. That's one of the things that really sets spiders apart from other arachnids. Early spiders probably used silk in simple ways, maybe for things like anchoring themselves or wrapping up their eggs. But at some point they figured out that they could use silk to catch prey.
00;29;34;13 - 00;29;47;24
Speaker 2
That was a total game changer for spiders.
00;29;47;27 - 00;29;49;19
Speaker 1
Okay. And then.
00;29;49;22 - 00;29;53;29
Unknown
And then what?
00;29;54;01 - 00;30;14;29
Speaker 2
And then spiders started experimenting with different kinds of silk and ways to use it. They figured out that some types of silk were perfect for building strong webs, while others were better for wrapping up prey. It was a gradual process, but eventually spiders developed all sorts of amazing silk based skills.
00;30;15;01 - 00;30;21;02
Speaker 1
When do we really see them start to diversify?
00;30;21;05 - 00;30;48;15
Speaker 2
We really start to see spiders diversified during the Mesozoic era. You might remember that's the time of the dinosaurs. As plants and insects were evolving into all sorts of new forms. Spiders had to adapt to keep up. This led to the development of different hunting styles, body shapes, and of course, those amazing webs we see today.
00;30;48;17 - 00;30;56;28
Speaker 1
Can you go into the diversification of their hunting styles in the Mesozoic era?
00;30;57;00 - 00;31;19;15
Speaker 2
All right, so during the Mesozoic ERA, spiders started to branch out into all sorts of different hunting styles. Some stuck with the classic web building strategy, but others got really creative. For instance, some spiders became expert ambush predators. They'd hide in flowers or under leave waiting for unsuspecting insects to wander by. Other spiders developed incredible jumping skills to pounce on their prey.
00;31;19;18 - 00;31;32;07
Speaker 2
And then there were the spiders that learned to mimic ants, which helped them sneak up on their victim. It was a time of rapid change and experimentation for eight legged friends.
00;31;32;09 - 00;31;40;14
Speaker 1
Can you, expand on the mimicking ants capability?
00;31;40;17 - 00;31;58;12
Speaker 2
All right, so those spiders that learn to mimic ants, we call them ant mimicking spiders. They've got this incredible ability to look, and sometimes even act like ants. They might copy the way ants walk or even use chemicals to smell like an ant colony. This is super helpful because it lets them sneak right into an anthill without getting attacked.
00;31;58;17 - 00;32;08;13
Speaker 2
Then they can pick off the ants one by one without any of the other ants getting suspicious. Want to hear about another cool hunting strategy?
00;32;08;16 - 00;32;20;07
Speaker 1
Yes, but I want you to talk a little bit more about how they trick the ants into thinking that they are one of them.
00;32;20;09 - 00;32;38;06
Speaker 2
Sure. So those ant mimicking spiders have a couple of tricks up their sleeve. First, they change their appearance to look a lot like ants. They might shorten their front legs to make them look more like ant antennae. Or they might even have coloring that matches the ants they're trying to copy. But it's not just about looks. Some of these spiders can actually copy the way ants move.
00;32;38;09 - 00;32;51;05
Speaker 2
They might wiggle their bodies in a way that mimics the ants walk, or even make little sounds that sound like ants communicating. It's kind of mind blowing how good some of these spiders are at their disguises.
00;32;51;07 - 00;33;03;02
Speaker 1
It seems dangerous to be like walking around in a colony and mimicking and and you have to be really confident.
00;33;03;04 - 00;33;19;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, you'd have to be pretty confident to pull that off. I mean, imagine if you messed up. Those ants would probably swarm you in seconds. But it seems like it was worth the risk for those spiders, since it's a pretty successful hunting strategy.
00;33;19;25 - 00;33;29;07
Speaker 1
Okay, can you talk about the other hunting strategies that you had in mind?
00;33;29;09 - 00;33;49;26
Speaker 2
All right. So there are a couple of other cool hunting strategies that spiders developed during the Mesozoic era. One is called the bull of spider. These spiders don't build webs. Instead, they make this sticky ball on the end of a silk thread. Then they swing it around to lure in moth. When a moth flies close enough, the spider tosses the sticky ball, and if they're lucky, it'll stick to the moth and they can reel it in.
00;33;50;02 - 00;34;06;15
Speaker 2
Another cool strategy is the spinning spider. These spiders have special glands in their head that produce a sticky, poisonous liquid. When they see an insect. They shoot this liquid out in a fast moving stream that traps the insect in a sticky mouth.
00;34;06;18 - 00;34;12;10
Speaker 1
Do they shoot it from a mouth?
00;34;12;12 - 00;34;25;05
Speaker 2
Yep. Spitting spiders have special glands in their head that hold the sticky liquid. They can shoot it out of their mouth at a super fast speed to trap their prey.
00;34;25;08 - 00;34;35;29
Speaker 1
Okay, you said that it during this Mesozoic era, that their body shapes also diverged.
00;34;36;01 - 00;35;00;23
Speaker 2
Yep. That's right. Along with developing new hunting style spiders during the Mesozoic era also started to look a lot more different from each other. Some stuck with the classic eight legged body plan, but others got really creative. We started to see spiders with longer legs for running. Some would flatter bodies for hiding in cracks, and even a few that looked kind of like crabs.
00;35;00;25 - 00;35;12;17
Speaker 1
Can you give me a specific example of real spiders that we know, too, of stoically going down each of these paths?
00;35;12;20 - 00;35;31;29
Speaker 2
All right, so I can give you some examples of modern spiders that have followed those evolutionary paths. It's important to remember that even though we're talking about spiders from millions of years ago, their descendants are still around today. So for the web building spiders, a great example is the garden orb weaver. They build those classic circular webs that we all recognize.
00;35;32;06 - 00;35;53;04
Speaker 2
Next, for the ambush predators, we have the crab spider. They're masters of disguise, and some can even change their color to match the flower they're hiding in. Jumping spiders are a good example of spiders that developed amazing leaping skills. They have incredible eyesight and can jump many times their own body length to catch prey. And finally, for those spiders that change their body shape, let's look at the flat crab spiders.
00;35;53;11 - 00;36;02;21
Speaker 2
They have this really weird body shape that's kind of flattened out, which helps them hide in cracks and crevices.
00;36;02;23 - 00;36;17;16
Speaker 1
I actually wanted you to. That was. That was good. Thank you. But I actually wanted you to go into the different types of body shapes and what their practical uses were.
00;36;17;18 - 00;36;35;09
Speaker 2
All right, so let's talk about those different spider body shapes. First there are the classic spiders. You could call them the generalist. They've got that classic eight legged shape with a round abdomen. This design is great for all around stuff like building webs and running around. Then we have the spiders with longer legs. These guys are built for speed.
00;36;35;11 - 00;36;52;01
Speaker 2
Think of them like the cheetahs of the spider world. They use those long legs to chase down their prey. Next there are the flat spiders. They've got a body that's kind of flattened out, almost like they've been squished. This shape is perfect for hiding in tight spaces like under bark or in cracks. It makes them really hard to spot.
00;36;52;06 - 00;37;13;08
Speaker 2
And last up, there are the spiders with specialized features. Some have extra long fangs for reaching into deep hole. Others might have a really strong abdomen for producing lots of silk. It just goes to show that evolution can take a basic body plan and tweak it in all sorts of interesting ways.
00;37;13;11 - 00;37;31;11
Speaker 1
Okay, let's keep going past the Mesozoic era towards modern day. Can you give me another milestone or kind of, prolific era or, time when there was a lot. Right.
00;37;31;11 - 00;37;51;17
Speaker 2
So after the dinosaurs met their end, spiders continue to evolve and diversify. But there's one group we need to talk about the jumping spiders. They really took off after the big extinction event. You see, with the dinosaurs gone, there was a whole bunch of new opportunities for smaller creatures jumping spiders with their amazing eyesight and leaping skills were perfectly suited to take advantage.
00;37;51;23 - 00;38;00;18
Speaker 2
They started to develop all sorts of specialized hunting techniques, and some even started to show signs of complex behavior.
00;38;00;20 - 00;38;04;14
Speaker 1
Okay, expand on that.
00;38;04;16 - 00;38;33;08
Speaker 2
All right, so jumping spiders are known for being really smart compared to other spiders. Some scientists think they might even be able to recognize individual humans. They also have amazing eyesight. Some can even see in color. This helps them spot their prey from a distance, and makes them really good at judging the perfect distance for their jump.
00;38;33;10 - 00;38;38;07
Speaker 1
Okay, let's keep going. Throughout history.
00;38;38;10 - 00;38;55;29
Speaker 2
All right, so after the jumping, spiders had their moment in the sun. Spiders continued to evolve, but at a slower pace. There weren't any more big extinction events to cause rapid changes. So spiders kind of settled into their various niches. Some stuck with the classic web building. Others perfected their hunting skills, and a few even developed some interesting social behaviors.
00;38;56;04 - 00;39;23;23
Speaker 2
One group that's worth mentioning are the social spiders. Unlike most spiders, which are solitary hunters, these guys live in big colonies and work together to catch prey. Some of their colonies can have hundreds or even thousands of spiders.
00;39;23;26 - 00;39;37;22
Speaker 1
Tell me about the advantages that are felt by spiders adopting social habits.
00;39;37;25 - 00;39;55;18
Speaker 2
Living in a big group has its perks for spiders. For one thing, they can take down much bigger prey. Imagine a whole bunch of spiders working together to trap a big beetle. It's like a tiny hunting party. Also, having all those spiders together makes it harder for predators to pick them off one by one. It's kind of like safety in numbers.
00;39;55;24 - 00;40;12;26
Speaker 2
Finally, those communal webs they build are super strong and can catch a ton of insects. It's like they have their own personal, all you can eat buffet.
00;40;12;28 - 00;40;23;03
Speaker 1
When you. What were some of the earliest insects that got small enough for spiders to eat?
00;40;23;06 - 00;40;40;25
Speaker 2
That's a great question. Some of the earliest insects that spiders might have snacked on were probably tiny springtails or bristle tails. These little guys have been around forever, and they're the perfect size for a hungry spider. Can you guess what other tiny insects might have been on the menu?
00;40;40;27 - 00;40;48;04
Speaker 1
I literally have zero chance of being able to guess that.
00;40;48;07 - 00;40;59;02
Speaker 2
You got it. Springtails and bristle tails would have been a good start for those early spiders. Since they're so small, they wouldn't have needed a huge web or super strong venom to catch them.
00;40;59;05 - 00;41;04;00
Speaker 1
What is a spring tail?
00;41;04;02 - 00;41;22;27
Speaker 2
Springtails are super tiny insects. Usually less than 1/16 of an inch long. They're kind of like the original jumpers. They have this special forked appendage that snaps against the ground, launching them into the air. It's how they got their name. You'd find them in damp places, like under rocks or in rotting leaves.
00;41;23;00 - 00;41;27;19
Speaker 1
Do they exist today?
00;41;27;22 - 00;41;40;07
Speaker 2
Yep. Springtails are still around today. They're actually really common, but most people don't even realize it since they're so tiny. You might find them in your garden, hanging out in damp soil or under rocks.
00;41;40;09 - 00;41;45;02
Speaker 1
Or the same thing as bristle tails.
00;41;45;04 - 00;41;58;07
Speaker 2
Yep. Bristle tails are another good guess. They're a bit older than springtails, and they're also really primitive insects. You'd find them in similar places, like under rocks or in leaf litter.
00;41;58;09 - 00;42;15;16
Speaker 1
Okay, what about, an insect that most people would know.
00;42;15;18 - 00;42;32;26
Speaker 1
Gemini. What about, what predator or what prey of the spider was an early insect that was small enough to be eaten by spiders that most people would know.
00;42;32;29 - 00;43;04;22
Speaker 2
That's a great question. Spiders are predators, so they eat other insects. Some of the most common insects that spiders like to eat are also ones that most people would recognize, like flies, mosquitoes, and grasshoppers. These insects have been around for a really long time, even before the biggest dinosaurs. So it's a safe bet that early spiders snacked on these tasty treats too.
00;43;04;24 - 00;43;18;16
Speaker 1
You said that jumping spiders were smart. How do we define, spider as being smarter than another spider?
00;43;18;18 - 00;43;37;14
Speaker 2
That's a great question. We don't have a lot of ways to directly test spider intelligence, so it's kind of tricky to say for sure which spiders are the smartest. But scientists can observe their behavior and make some educated guesses. Jumping spiders get bonus points for having amazing eyesight and some really complex hunting behaviors. They stalk their prey, pounce on it, and even use tools.
00;43;37;14 - 00;43;53;07
Speaker 2
Sometimes that takes a certain level of problem solving smarts, so it makes sense to think of them as being a little bit brighter than your average spider.
00;43;53;09 - 00;43;59;17
Speaker 1
So a spider is kind of smarter if it does things that humans do.
00;43;59;19 - 00;44;26;24
Speaker 2
Well, we can't say for sure if jumping spiders are smarter than humans in the same way we think of intelligence. But what we can say is that they have some pretty amazing abilities for such tiny creatures. They can solve problems, learn from their mistakes, and even recognize individual humans. So while they might not be chatting with us anytime soon, it's still pretty cool how smart these little guys are.
00;44;26;26 - 00;44;32;00
Speaker 1
So if a spider knows someone, they'll recognize them.
00;44;32;03 - 00;44;54;22
Speaker 2
It's unlikely that a spider could recognize someone in the same way that humans do. They don't have the same kind of complex brains that we do. But some spiders like those jumping spiders we talked about, have very good eyesight. It's possible that a jumping spider could recognize a specific person based on their appearance, but it wouldn't be the same as conscious recognition like we experienced.
00;44;54;24 - 00;45;13;06
Speaker 1
Has there been any research done on seeing whether a spider can act differently because it's around somebody that it recognizes, like a dog or a cat or a horse or something like that?
00;45;13;08 - 00;45;31;14
Speaker 2
That's a really interesting question, and it's something that scientists are starting to look into. While there isn't a ton of research specifically on spiders and how they act around familiar animals, we do know that some spiders can recognize individual humans. It's not a stretch to think they might also be able to pick up unfamiliar sense, or even visual cues from other animals.
00;45;31;17 - 00;45;43;19
Speaker 2
There's definitely room for more studies in this area.
00;45;43;21 - 00;45;57;06
Speaker 1
Can you give me some factual stuff about how we know that spiders can recognize individual humans?
00;45;57;08 - 00;46;17;25
Speaker 2
It's true that there's not a ton of solid research on this yet, but there are some interesting clues that spiders might be able to recognize us. First, some spiders, especially jumping spiders, have incredible eyesight. They can see in color and even detect some things we can't like ultraviolet light. This means they can pick up on a lot of visual details about us, like our face shape or even the patterns on our clothes.
00;46;17;27 - 00;46;40;07
Speaker 2
There's also the fact that some spiders seem to get used to being around humans. If you have a spider that lives in your house, you might notice it seems less afraid of you over time. This suggests it's learned you're not a threat and might even recognize you as a familiar presence. Finally, while it's not direct proof of recognition, some studies show that spiders can learn to associate certain objects or actions with positive or negative experiences.
00;46;40;11 - 00;46;54;12
Speaker 2
This suggests they have some basic problem solving skills and the ability to remember things, which could be a foundation for recognizing specific people.
00;46;54;15 - 00;47;08;22
Speaker 1
Have we done any research that shows if spiders have different behaviors around humans that they are familiar with?
00;47;08;25 - 00;47;27;05
Speaker 2
There's some evidence that suggests spiders might act differently around familiar humans. For example, some studies have shown that spiders seem less likely to run away when they're approached by someone they've encountered before. This could mean they're starting to recognize that person as a non threat. It's also possible that spiders might adjust their web building behavior around familiar humans.
00;47;27;08 - 00;47;47;11
Speaker 2
Think about it if you're always in the same spot, a spider might realize it doesn't need to build a web there because you won't get caught in it. While there's no solid research on this yet, it's definitely an interesting idea for future studies.
00;47;47;14 - 00;48;03;13
Speaker 1
For a long time, I found spiders to be, scary or creepy or weird. And then I found that, learning more about them helped.
00;48;03;15 - 00;48;21;15
Speaker 2
It's totally understandable to find spiders a little creepy at. Okay, what would you like to know? I can tell you about different types of spiders, their webs, how they hunt, or even some of the amazing things scientists are learning about them.
00;48;21;17 - 00;48;41;23
Speaker 1
Can you tell me why you think the humans have such a, such a intense fear of spiders? More than just some other insects?
00;48;41;25 - 00;49;03;03
Speaker 2
There are a few reasons why humans might have a stronger fear of spiders than other insects. For one, spiders have a very different body plan than up with multiple legs, and sometimes hairy bodies that can look creepy or even alien to some people. Also, some spiders have venom, which can be dangerous depending on the species. Even if the spider isn't deadly, the idea of being bitten is scary.
00;49;03;06 - 00;49;32;20
Speaker 2
Finally, there's the element of the unexpected. Flies and other insects are usually out in the open. But spiders can hide in dark corners and then suddenly appear. That can startle people and make them feel like they have no control over the situation.
00;49;32;23 - 00;49;43;24
Speaker 1
But, I think I've found that spiders play an important role.
00;49;43;26 - 00;50;09;00
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Spiders are incredibly important to our ecosystem. They help control populations of other insects like mosquitoes and flies, which can be real pests. Plus, they're a food source for other animals, so they play a big part in the food chain.
00;50;09;02 - 00;50;21;01
Speaker 1
What would you tell someone who is fearful of spiders and would like to not be?
00;50;21;03 - 00;50;41;01
Speaker 2
There are a couple of things to remember if you're scared of spiders. First, most spiders are totally harmless to humans. They're actually really shy and would rather run away than bite you. Second, spiders are super important for the environment. They help keep the insect population in check and are a food source for other animals. If you want to get over your fear, there are things you can do.
00;50;41;02 - 00;50;52;25
Speaker 2
Learning about spiders can make them seem less scary. You might also try looking at pictures or even watching videos of them. Baby steps.
00;50;52;27 - 00;50;56;15
Speaker 1
That's good advice. I like it.
00;50;56;18 - 00;50;59;00
Speaker 2
Glad I could help.
00;50;59;02 - 00;51;03;25
Speaker 1
Do you have anything else that you'd like to share about spiders?
00;51;03;27 - 00;51;14;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. One more thing about spiders. They're actually really good parents. Some spiders will guard their eggs, and others even bring food to their babies until they're old enough to hunt on their own. Isn't that sweet?
00;51;14;15 - 00;51;20;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00;51;20;11 - 00;51;27;24
Speaker 1
All right. I think that's it for today.
00;51;27;26 - 00;51;35;12
Speaker 1
Gemini. Thanks for the conversation today. I think that's it.
00;51;35;15 - 00;51;39;25
Speaker 2
Any time. Feel free to reach out if you have any other questions.
00;51;39;28 - 00;51;41;07
Speaker 1
Peace.